Don't You Dare Hold Us Accountable Or...

We will shame you, call you all kinds of colorful names, and tell you to "get some help." Yes, apparently, that is exactly what Gortexgrrl, one of the most radical of the Mandatory Marriage advocates, done in an attempt to defend "Captain Sensible" [aka, Deanna Holmes] from having to be held responsible for the hatred she has spewed at myself and Ted Slater.

Here are her posts, in order:

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Adam, you know what I'm talking about -- posting her photo, personal information, etc. You've both engaged in some pretty intense mud-slinging, but nothing she has said about you even begins to compare with this kind of exposure and character assassination. This is your eighth post in a row about her. You have gone way too far with this. It's so spiteful and mean-spirited. The sheer wickedness of what you have done eclipses any theological truth that may have been intended. You are nowhere near being in the company of these Calvinist greats. Surely, if they could see what you have done they would certainly shake their heads and walk away from you.Shame on you.
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Excuses, excuses.Basically, you're giving us the "bu-bu-but, she started it" little brother business.It's very plain to see where your heart is at, Adam. It's all about retaliation for you, isn't it?
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Adam,If you have to be shown, chapter and verse, post for post, why what you did was wicked and vengeful, then there really is not much hope for you.
You have carried on now, for eight posts about CS. And in the same amount of time, she's mentioned your blog perhaps twice and on one occasion she contritely retracted -- something I doubt you would ever do.Not only to yourself, but to your school, you bring shame. It's just absolutely disgraceful.
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First off, again, notice the pure acid from the folks in this movement. I have received a whole lot of mail from these folks, and it is by far the nastiest stuff I have ever read. I have talked with Jehovah's Witnesses, Roman Catholics, and King James Only advocates, and the notes that I have received from these folks are, by far, the most nasty of any group.

However, let us take a look at her claims one by one, and we will say that any person thinking rationally about this situation will be forced to the conclusion that, for some reason, these folks do not want to be held accountable for their behavior.

First of all, yes, the last eight posts mention Captain Sensible, but, first of all, who else do they mention? Debbie Maken, Ted Slater, William Shishko, etc. Not only that, but did she notice how many of Captain Sensible's posts mention Ted Slater? I went to her blog and found that six out of the eight posts now up there mention or allude to Ted Slater in some way shape or form. Yet, why is it that Gortexgrrl is not over there accusing Deanna Holmes of the same things she is accusing me? The double standards here are amazing.

Not only that, but let us not forget the number of times that Captain Sensible has used terms such as "false teacher" of Carolyn McCulley. Yet, Gortexgrrl refuses to say anything about that. Now, I am not saying that this exhonorates me of wrongdoing if, indeed, I have done something wrong. It is just amazing how Gortexgrrl uses one standard on those who oppose her movement, but another standard on those who support her movement.

The reality is, if you look at my posts, my posts are not personal attacks on Captain Sensible. They are discussions of what she is teaching, and how it is dangerious to the church, imparticular, the church in England. They are also discussions of her and Debbie Maken's behavior showing the fruits of this movement in terms of how selfish these people bahave. Not only that, but it is also a discussion about the way her and Debbie Maken treat those that disagree with them, yes, even those who agree with their movement such as Ted Slater! Gortexgrrl would have you believe that I have some personal vendetta against this woman. I simply do not. I am concerned about what she is teaching, and I am concerned about the fruits of the radical version of this movement. Does that mean that, if someone takes the shots that she has taken against me and Ted Slater that I am not going to call her to the carpet for it? Absolutely not. However, that seems to be the expectation. We can hit you, but don't you dare hold us accountable for it. There is nothing wrong with using eight posts to continuiously point out the ungodly behavior and nastiness of this movement so that others will avoid it.

Not only that, but notice how she uses words like "personal information" as if I had put her credit card number up on the internet or something. Everything that I put up had already been posted on the internet long before I ever saw it! The only difference is that now I am letting people know that Captain Sensible is this woman who was interviewed over on Spiral Universe. Why is there some problem with that? Why is there something wrong with finding out that the person who has written personal attacks against you and Ted Slater happens to have a name, and posting it so that people know exactly who is responsible for this acid? Secondly, she says I engaged in character assasination. On the blog, I asked her to prove it. She never did.

Also, she says that what I did is "spiteful." I am beginning to notice that you can make anything wrong so long as you use the right vocabulary [and, yes, Debbie Maken does this too]. No, I am simply pointing out that this attack across my bow is coming from a very influential figure in the church in England, and that this figure is directly responsible for the personal attacks she has written against Ted Slater and myself. BTW, just to show that I am consistent at this point, I have criticized people from my own side when they have behaved in the same way. Apparently, I was also being "spiteful" to the manyluxuryvacations blog when I wrote that post.

Secondly, as far as posting retractions, I even mentioned that I had to apologize for the harshness of my language. However, again, that does not matter to Gortexgrrl. I would never post a retraction, and don't confuse me with the facts. Also, isn't it interesting that I have changed my perspective on a whole host of views with regards to this issue. I now no longer hold the same interpretation of Genesis 1:28, Malachi 2:15, 1 Corinthians 7, and many other texts that I held when I first started writing on this issue. However, you know something very interesting? I have *never* heard Debbie Maken admit that she is wrong. Even when her position results in utter nonsense, she refuses to admit she is wrong. Yet, according to Gortexgrrl, I am the one who would never retract a post.

Again, the hypocracy of Gortexgrrl's attack on me is simply unbelievable. She tells me I need to "get some help." Let me ask, how does Gortexgrrl understand this verse?:

2 Timothy 2:24 - 26 The Lord's bond-servant must not be quarrelsome, but be kind to all, able to teach, patient when wronged, 25 with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition, if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth, 26 and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, having been held captive by him to do his will.

Does it sound like this girl is showing much "gentleness" using phrases like "get some help?" Does that show much "patience?" Interestingly enough, this is in the context of refuting false teachers! How do you understand this verse if you follow Debbie Maken, and language such as this is acceptable?

I think we all need to restart, and attempt to deal with this issue in the very manner spoken of in this verse. I am willing to do so, but, apparently, Captain Sensible and Gortexgrrl are not. I simply let that contrast speak for itself with regards to the integrity of the folks that are part of the radical version of this movement.

Beware of "Captain Sensible"

I will have to begin with an apology. I have been ill recently, and have not even been able to concentrate in my classes. Hence, I don't know how good this post is going to be, but I simply must post this before Captain Sensible gets away with more of this kind of post.


Many people have wondered why it is that I have bothered to respond to Captain Sensible, and I responded in my last post by saying that Captain Sensible is an influential figure in the Church over in England. I said that I could not reveal any more, but, as a matter of fact, I misunderstood the person who fowarded me these things, and I was written again, and told that I do have the ability to release this information.

Hence, just click on this link, and go and read the biography at the bottom of the page. It will tell you all you need to know about this anonymous "Captain Sensible," and why it is that I keep responding to her. A whole lot makes sense now. We all know that Debbie Maken made a trip to London last year. The interesting thing is that this is right in "Captain Sensible's" backyard, and yet, somehow "Captain Sensible" never made a comment about it on Debbie Maken's blog when she announced that she was going to London. That seems really odd [especially since every time Debbie Maken breathes, Captain Sensible writes about it] until you find out that Deanna Holmes actually did make a comment on Debbie Maken's blog when she announced she was going to London. Not only that, but one always wondered why it is that there is a link from Captain Sensible's blog to the website of London Christians.

Not only that, but, if you do a Google search for "Deanna Holmes," you will find that, in all of her writings, she has used very similar phrases as "Captain Sensible," such as "Well meaning Platitudes" [Captain Sensible, Deanna Holmes] , "For such a time as this" [Captain Sensible, Deanna Holmes], both have attacked Carolyn McCully [Captian Sensible, Deanna Holmes], and have even used the "job" analogy [Captain Sensible, Deanna Holmes]. Indeed, there seems to be no doubt in my mind that "Captain Sensible" is Deanna Holmes, the head of London Christians.


In other words, how much do you think that these ideas are presented at the social events of London Christians? Probably quite a bit. That is why I have continued to respond to this woman, so that our brothers and sisters in Christ who get involved with these social events will be able to respond in a Biblical fashion to the unbiblical position of Debbie Maken. I want people who go to these events and hear these things to find a website like this, and be able to respond to what is presented to them.

With all of that said, I want you to look at the selfishness of Captain Sensible's recent post. First of all, she says:

We are seriously misrepresenting God when we attribute to Him situations causing suffering that we have actually caused ourselves, because we have strayed so far from the Bible. Talk about blaming God for our wrongdoings!

First of all, Captain Sensible's position is not Biblical. That is the whole point of the debate. If anyone wants to see just how these people respond when challanged with exegetical objections to their position, click here, and read my interaction with Debbie Maken. Debbie Maken was reduced to nothing more than empty accusations when she was put up against someone who actually knew how to do exegesis. I will let Debbie's behavior and her refusal to answer direct objections to her position be the refutation of the idea that their position is Biblical.

Secondly, is it true that we are "blaming God for our wrongdoings?" Apparently, Captain Sensible does not believe that God can ordain the pain that we inflict on ourselves because of our sin to conform us to the image of his son. The whole point of this pain is that it is discipline so that we repent of our sins, and turn to Christ. Hence, even the suffering we inflict on ourselves has redemptive value, because it teaches us to turn from our sin, and turn to Christ. Thus, Christ's purpose in his ordination of our sin, and our purpose in committing that sin are two totally and completely different things. Of course, that is why the exegetical issues in this discussion are so important.

Single Christian women, beware!

Instead of addressing the root cause of the problem, this is another attempt to keep you subdued, by making you feel that you should stoically bear your singleness -- and basically not make too much fuss it.

This will allow the enemy to continue to destroy masculinity in the church, and dishonour marriage by making you feel sinful for not being joyful about the suffering or "discipline" singleness causes.

We, as the contemporary church, have brought this problem about.

Here is where the real selfishness of Deanna Holmes' post shows through. What she is basically saying is "I have the right to feel comfortable with regards to marriage and singleness, and, if I do not, it must be someone's fault, either the man's fault, or the church's fault. In fact, this is the very thing I am going to bring to the scriptures, and interpret the scriptures in this light." As I said in my last post, God does not care one iota about your comfort. He wants to conform you to the image of his son. As I have said before, I am not against being proactive in finding a spouse. The way I found my fiancé and [soon to be] wife is by people in my church praying for me, and by actively pursuing a relationship with her. I think the question has to be asked as to whether or not, when we are proactive, God has the obligation to say "yes." I do not believe the scriptures give us any warrant to such a position.

This is why I always bring up the issue of idolatry. If you say that you must have marriage, and God cannot withhold it from you because your comfort is the most important thing in the world, then, yes, you are committing idolatry. And before they go using the starvation analogy, yes, there are many brothers and sisters in third world countries who are starving to death. And you know what? There faith is far stronger than any of ours ever could be. God certainly can grant food, marriage, and conforming to the image of Christ to any person if he so desires, but he is under no obligation to do so. Captain Sensible appears to want to lower God down to her level, so as to make him take her comfort as the highest priority, when it simply is not. And then, to misuse the text of scripture, and selectively cite the reformers in order to make yourself feel better about your idolatry is just simply to get yourself into even deeper water.

Yet, this is what we have to deal with when we deal with these folks. This also, incedentally, shows us why it is that Open Theists are so popular with these folks. They don't want the almighty God of the scriptures who ordains whatsoever comes to pass. They want a God they can control with their own comfort. The God of Open Theism fits that bill very well. It is a sad thing to see, but, hopefully, what I have written with regards to this topic will enable our brothers and sisters in England to see the dangerous road down which this position leads.

In fact, Debbie Maken has been reduced to the level of saleswoman on her blog. The whole post is nothing more than, "Look at the personal comfort that will come to you if you adopt the ideas presented in my book." That is why we need to be careful. Once we value our own personal comfort to the point were single men are shamed, and the church is blamed for everything under the sun, we might feel comfortable, but we will feel comfortable in our sin. That has to be the major question for the church. Do we value marriage more then conforming to the image of Christ, or do we value conforming to the image of Christ more than marriage? By all means, we should help those who want to get married, but to assume that God must give you marriage simply because of your own personal comfort, and assume that someone is sinning by not giving you what you want is simple idolatry.

This whole fiasco also shows the necessity of having sound teaching on the little things in the Christian life. This is why it is important to pay attention to your pastor when he speaks, and to read good sound books on Christian living. I would very highly recommend the preaching of Pastor William Shishko, anything by Edward T. Welch, and, though I don't agree with him on everything, Pastor John Piper has written some excellent things on practical theology. This is why it is so important to, not just be able to interpret the scriptures, but to see how it applies to our everyday life.

All in all, I am glad my post has had the reaction that it has. It really displays the selfish character of this movement, and shows us why it is that proper training Biblical Hermeneutics and practical theology are things which are so desparately needed in the church today. I am also glad that Ted Slater has posted something very similar on the Boundless Blog, and has gotten quite a positive response from single Christian women. I hope that more and more single Christian women start running from Debbie Maken and Deanna Holmes' ideas as fast as they can. However, until then, I guess this website can be a place to which people can point others who are struggling with these issues, both in England, and around the globe.

Suffering Gets the Goat of the Marriage Mandators

I know some of you have complained that Captain Sensible is not someone people take seriously, and that she is nothing but a bully, and, to both, I would agree. However, I have recently been fowarded some information about this woman showing that, while many people may not take her seriously, and she may be a bully, she has a position of influence in the Christian church over in England. I cannot tell what it is because I have been sworn to secrecy. Hence, for the sake of our single brothers over in England, we need to continue to give them a response to this woman so that they will be able to combat the arguments written on her blog.

Anyway, my recent post on suffering got a real stir out of these folks. I was very thankful to Ted Slater for his appriciative comments. I am finding Ted and Boundless to be the most fair of anyone who discusses this issue. It has been hard, in this discussion, to keep your cool. I learned the first time that I dialogued with Debbie Maken last year that, when someone responds to you in an arrogant and nasty way, it is hard not to respond back in an arrogant and nasty way. I have gotten a whole lot of hate mail from these folks too [although, thankfully, I have not gotten any recently]! Anyway, I have found that, if you are not careful, you can let it become a sore spot, and you think that anytime someone makes an argument, they are attacking you in an arrogant and condecending way. I have tried to avoid doing this, but I had Dr. Averbeck tell me that he thinks that I haven't succeeded, and also, Ted Slater has told me that he thinks I have not succeeded. Hence, I just wanted to clear this up before I go on to something else. I think that we need to be careful that we do not lower ourselves down to these people's level when we speak about this issue.

Anyway, even though Ted may find this hard to believe, I do support Boundless on many issues. I have defended them on feminism, abortion, atheism, homosexuality, and a whole host of other topics. Hence, I am not "anti-Boundless" by any stretch of the imagination. I just happen to have a disagreement with them on this topic. However, what is interesting is that, from reading Ted's comments and my comments both on my blog and on the Boundless blog, it appears that we are getting closer in terms of our perspective, and, as I said, I look foward to continuing the conversation. I think we need to make a clear cut distinction between the nasty and arrogant radicals like Debbie Maken and Captain Sensible, and Focus on the Family and Boundless. They are by no means the same.

Now that I have commented on the people who have given my post a positive review, let me comment on the folks that that have not done so, namely, Debbie Maken and Captain Sensible. First of all, Captain Sensible seems to think, for some reason, that I said singleness was a gift because it causes suffering. I never ever said singleness is a gift because it causes suffering. What I said was that, even if one wants to argue that singleness can cause suffering, that still does not mean it cannot be a gift. Of course, Captain Sensible, because she believes that all singleness causes suffering, read it in this way. It is an important clarification mostly because it illustrates a major difference between us. There are many men on the internet with whom I have dialogued who are single and like it, and have no intention of dating or getting married. In this case, I would argue that singleness causes no suffering, and it has nothing whatsoever to do with what I said.

Now, Debbie Maken has commented on this on Captain Sensible's blog. Maken argues that I am "imposing "intentions" onto God that simply are not there." Ummm, did Debbie even bother to listen to Pastor Shishko's discussion about the nature of suffering in the Christian life? Did she bother to listen to his argument that all suffering in our lives is to conform is to the image of Christ? Secondly, she said it is God's "explicitly revealed prescription" to be fruitful and multiply. Anyone who knows anything about the issues I went through with Captain Sensible knows that this is absolutely amazing. Captain Sensible and Debbie Maken were caught utterly flat footed when I pointed out that the next phrase is "fill the earth." Now, are we to say that only have fifteen kids somehow causes unnecessary suffering because it is against God's revealed will to have seven billion children so that we fill the earth? You see, Debbie cannot respond to this, even though she claims that she has, she has not. Here is what a response would look like. You would have to say something like, "Here is where there is a clear cut distinction between the first two imperatives, and the third imperative in this text, and here is why your interpretation of the covenantal usage of this phrase is a misinterpretation." When she actually starts dealing with what I say, rather than engaging in name-calling, then I will say that she has actually answered what I have said, and I will give a sound reply.

However, I want you to examine the man-centeredness behind Debbie Maken's post. She said, "Examining the 800 lb gorilla that the Pinto had a major design flaw, and eradicating same might mean less deaths and less unnecessary suffering. Would that then mean that God was not bestowing the gift of accidental death as much?" Notice, from Maken's perspective, what happens in this world is a result of what man does. Man determines his own destiny. In simple response to Debbie Maken we need to point out that it was impossible for there to not be unnecessary suffering. It was impossible for this company to have examined the Pinto more carefully. Why? Because God had ordained both that that these tragedies would happen, and he also ordained the means whereby they would happen [i.e. the carelessness of the workers]. You see, from Maken's perspective, everything that happens in this world is the result of man. She has a very man-centered view of suffering.

Also, notice Debbie Maken's closing statement of her post:

There is nothing glorious about interminable singleness that many Western Christians endure, and this endless search for that glorious rationalization would produce better fruit if we actually searched for ways to reform dating.

In other words, she tells us that she accepts, presuppositionally, that there can be nothing glorious about wanting a spouse and not being able to find one. This is where I think Pastor Shishko's discussion in the first hour becomes extremely important. He told us that, one of the major ways our culture does not have a Godward focus in our suffering is that we think that we have a right to comfort. Interestingly enough, this seems to be largely a female problem. I remember talking to one girl who had just accused a man of sexual harrassment, and she simply said that, the reason she accused him was because he was making her feel uncomfortable. She never mentioned anything that he did that was wrong. It was just the fact that it made her feel uncomfortable. Let me say this very calmly and plainly. God doesn't care one iota about your comfort. If you have this view of God that your comfort is the most important thing, especially in the realm of singleness and marriage, then you need to repent, and put God back on the throne. God doesn't care about your comfort. He cares about conforming you to the image of his son. And is this not what should be most important to the Christian?

I would encourage any of you to read the letters of Samuel Rutherford, and listen to that lecture series by Pastor Shishko. The fact that so many of these folks refuse to deal with it means that we have hit on something very important. I would also recommend, a very good article recently published by Boundless makes this one final excellent point. I will close with this, as it is excellent food for thought:

If I lose a job I reflexively ask, "What is God teaching me?" If my elderly parents need care I ask, "How is God using this in my life?" If a child is in an automobile accident I want to know, "What is God teaching our family?"

And the Bible encourages us to ask those questions. Hebrews 12:7-8, James 1:2-4, and other texts tell us that God uses our suffering to discipline us. God's discipline then brings about our full salvation which includes holiness. That is, suffering is redemptive in our lives.

Indeed, if we have more people following this advice, it may be that Debbie Maken's movement would not seem attractive to anyone.

Captain Sensible is at it Again!

(Warning!!!!!!! Make sure you put on your asbestos gloves before reading this post!!!!!!!)

Wow, I mean, I have never seen such venom as what is in this post from Captain Sensible. She calls Ted Slater and myself "Dumb and Dumber." Now, I know that it is difficult sometimes to control your language when you are addressing such a hot topic. In fact, one of the greatest challanges in addressing this issue is to control my language when I am hurled the insults that Captain Sensible and Debbie Maken send my way. That is one thing about which my professors told me to be careful. I am even somewhat concerned about my last post. It is not easy. However, this post by Captain Sensible absolutely takes the cake. I will leave it to the reader to decide if this is truly Christian behavior.

Captain Sensible really only makes one substantive argument:

We currently have "Adam" arguing that because the creation mandate starts with "Go forth and multiply" and continues "fill the earth and subdue it", then it cannot apply as a mandate to marry because no one person can possibly "fill the earth".
Huh?
Maybe this will help him.
Imagine the scenario of a sales team. Their manager says to them "Go out and make sales. The target for this month is £100k!"Does the manager mean that each individual has to make £100k in sales, otherwise s/he is exempt from the work?

Or is the normal, sensible, logical understanding that collectively, the team should make £100k in sales, and that each member of the sales team should do their best to contribute their share, unless there is a very good reason for them to be excused from the work?

The problem with Captain Sensible's interpretation is that she is being arbitrary. She wants to say that the imperatives "Be fruitful and multiply" mean "everyone must be fruitful and multiply" and the phrase fill the earth means "everyone in a group of people must contribute to a quota of filling the earth." However, such is totally arbitrary. Notice, the analogy to the sales manager doesn't work because he changed his language from the imperative mood to to "the target for this month is." The Hebrew text simply does not do that. It is three imperatives in a row:

#r,a'Þh'-ta, Waïl.miW Wb±r>W WrïP.

All of the words in purple are imperatives with a prefixed conjunction [except for the first word that has no prefixed conjunction]. "Be fruitful," [WrïP.] "Multiply" [Wb±r>W] and "Fill" [Waïl.miW]. However, notice, they are right next to each other. There is nothing between the but a conjunction. Captain Sensible would have us believe that [WrïP.] and [Wb±r>W] are commands given to individuals while [Waïl.miW] is a given to a group of people. Such is totally arbitrary. What warrant do we have for saying that the first two imperatives are addressed to individuals, and the second is addressed to a group when [Waïl.miW] is the very next word!!!!!!!!!!!! Is that how we do exegesis? We can just arbitrarily change the referent for the commands right in the middle of the sentence, even though it is exactly the same form, and the very next word?

Also, would Captain Sensible say that it is a correct interpretation for a group of people to "be fruitful and multiply?" In other words, "Be fruitful and Multiply" is not a command to individuals, but to a group of people, just like she says "fill the earth" is a command to a group of people? And if not, why the arbitrary switching of the person to whom the third command is addressed when it is the next word????????

Secondly, the only way I can see Captain Sensible trying to get around it is from her statement to the effect of "contribute to the sales?" I assume she is implying that we must only contribute to "filling the earth." So, would it be alright, then, if I just contributed to "being fruitful and multiplying" by being a matchmaker, and getting people together, even though I have no children of my own? Well, Captain Sensible will never go for that one!!!!!!!!!

Indeed, no Hebrew grammar lists "contributive" [is there really such a thing????] as a valid sytactical function for the imperative. There is simply no usage of the imperative that means "contribute to x." Captain Sensible is just making it up as she goes along, not realizing that she is unnaturally breaking up the text in an effort to preserve her exegetically weak interpretation of Genesis 1:28.

Now, I just simply have to quote the rest of the stuff that was said about Ted and I, because it is just full of acid. It amazes me that she can call Ted and I "Dumb and Dumber," then present a very weak exegetical presentation on Genesis 1:28, and state the following. It is truly amazing:

Ted Slater seems impressed by the great wisdom on display in Adam's posts - even offering a recent "well done"! Shame he didn't use his comment intervention on that thread to "encourage" and give "hope" to a poor woman (see below) who wrote about how it was just too painful to desire marriage any more. No, Ted Slater ignores that, and instead offer a pat on the back to an amateur theologian whose arguments are too stupid to even take seriously. (Maybe Ted thinks she "intentionally" delayed marriage, and now good Christian men will understandably pass her by in favour of women with more "vigour" and "youthfulness"?)

I am also sick and tired of reading about Christian women who "haven't had a date in 10 years", yet are "constantly being approached by men in the world.

"This is simply unacceptable.

Single Christian women must not put up with this any longer. I would suggest marrying a Godly, believing man in the world, one unsullied by all this falsely "Christian" poison, and then once settled with a husband and family of your own, focus on changing this situation for your still suffering sisters.

Shame on Ted Slater. Shame on Boundless. Shame on Focus on the Family. Shame on the lot of them. They have the power and position to do good. But they are instead choosing to continue the madness.

Focus on "the Family"? I think not...

Incidentally: Here is that heart-breaking comment that was posted and which Ted ignored, preferring to post a comment saying "well done" to Adam, and another which effectively encourages men that have delayed marriage for decades to chase after younger women>

Tell me, shouldn't this poor young woman have been addressed? My heart truly breaks for her. How is it possible for Ted Slater to leave her comment ignored, and make such car crash interventions instead? And still keep his job???

Wow, I mean, first of all, these folks refuse to admit that we do not believe that there is anything wrong with wanting marriage, so, her criticism of Ted with regards to this post is just downright absurd.

Second of all, she suggest "marrying a Godly, believing man in the world." The phrase "Godly, believing man in the world" is an oxymoron. If someone is a Godly, believing man, he will not willfully refrain from the covenant community. I know I will probably alienate some people by saying this, but, if you are willfully not a member of the local church, not subject to the elders of that church [1 Peter 5:5], and are forsaking the assembly together [Hebrews 10:25], then you are living in sin. People who intentionally live in unrepentant sin, who wilfully refuse to be obedient to God in his commands as to how we are to live our Christian life in the covenant community are not believers. Now, I am not talking about those who are unable to regularly attend a church because of an illness or because they live too far away from the nearest church, etc. I am talking about a person, like Captain Sensible is talking about, who, by willfully refusing to be a part of a covenant community, is living a life of sin. Such a person is not a Christian in the Biblical sense, and I believe that, therefore, Captain Sensible is telling Christian women to marry unbelievers.

However, beyond these two serious flaws, look at the acid in this post. You have words and phrases like "amateur theologian," "too stupid to be taken seriously," "falsely Christian poison," "shame on Boundless, Focus on the Family, a lot of them," Focus on the Family...I think not," "heartbreaking comment which Ted ignored," "which effectively encourages men that have delayed marriage for decades to chase after younger women," and "How is it possible for Ted Slater to leave her comment ignored, and make car crash interventions instead? And still keep his job???" And, of course, we have Debbie Maken jumping in to rebuke Captain Sensible for her personal attacks on Ted and I......well, of course not. Debbie Maken called me an "amateur theologian" as well in her post that I linked to in my last blog entry. I really have to wonder if these women recognize that their language is giving away the fact that they are unable to answer the criticisms we are using against them.

Again, I absolutely cannot believe that people take Debbie Maken and Captain Sensible seriously. They are on crusades, and are unable to stop and hear what the other side is saying. It is merely a game to smear the other side, and make them look so stupid that no one would ever dare believe what they have to say. Of course, if our arguments were so stupid, you would think that they would be jumping at the opportunity to show it. I will be interested to see if she will post this argument about Genesis 1:28 on Boundless, because I would love to have the opportunity of showing why it is that these people have to keep on saying that we are "stupid" and "dumb and dumber" on their own blogs where they have comment moderation, and yet, will refuse to subject themselves to an *open* dialogue about the issues with the very people they are willing to call "stupid" and "dumb and dumber" on their own, comment moderated, blog.

At least it is good that Ted Slater is out there being shot at too. It feels good to not be the only moving target.

The Complete Meltdown Over at Boundless

I had been having a dialogue with a woman named Jennifer here. Now, you have to understand, you have a woman that has written on the meaning of 1 Corinthians 7:8 using the Greek, and yet, she has never set foot in a Greek class. That, of course, doesn't stop her from making, and continuing to make, all kinds of errors on the Greek text, even when I have corrected her on it before this. She even openly and blatantly commited an exegetical fallacy in this very discussion that no scholar of any language would accept.

Anyway, the other day I tried to post my response, and it told me that I am not able to post messages. I figured that something must be wrong with my computer or something, so I just waited until I could get to school. Unfortuately, Anakin Niceguy posted this:

The Boundless Line blog has a post on the supposed relationship between single people and shrinking churches. Among other things, the post noted:
Dr. Wilcox explains that even while family formation is central to the life of a church, many churches are instead trying to fill empty pews by compromising Biblical positions on family.I tried to respond with the following comment:

If churches are shrinking, is it really the problem of unmarried people, or is it the problem of complacent congregants and church-leaders who couldn't look beyond their comfort zones and heed the message of Luke 4:15-24? The last time I checked the wording of the Great Commission, it didn't say anything about having babies.However, the website rejected my comments and informed me that I am not allowed to post.

Now, of course, I am looking at this, and wondering to myself why it is that this has happened. Ted Slater, the editor at Boundless, posted his reason:

Anakin -- we strive for a conversation on our blog that is productive and cordial. We oftentimes publish comments that disagree with the original post. The thing is, your comments have consistently been contentious, often misrepresenting us. While the comment you mention here is innocuous, other comments have been unacceptable. Such distracting and unhelpful communication is not welcome on The Line.

Thank you for understanding.

My first question to Ted is why it is that she posts, and even gives special blog posts, to Debbie Maken? Debbie Maken is a perfect example of someone who is terribly contentious, and is consistently misrepresenting the reformers, and even altering quotes to prove her case which I have documented here. Yet, the do not ban Debbie Maken.

Worse than that, Ted just asserts that Anakin misrepresents the authors of Boundless. Where does he do that? It takes much more than just an assertion to prove your point. You have to show a distinction between what you are saying and what they are saying. Ted simply does not do that.

Also, what about the other comments that are posted on Boundlessline that I have documented before? Well, Ted has a response to this:

TMD -- Yes, we publish a lot of disagreeable and contentious comments. The thing is, these people have shown in other instances that they are interested in furthering a discussion, in having an honest debate.In Anakin's case, I haven't seen that. I've only seen him bent on misrepresenting Boundless and facilitating contention.

Well, my question is where has Jennifer, Darren Allan, Captain Sensible, or any of these other people agreed with anything we have said? Jennifer is still posting away, Captain Sensible is still pursuing her weirdness, and Debbie Maken does not even think that single men deserve a substantive response. Perhaps, it was Albert Mohler and Debbie Maken that facilitated contention by writing and publishing the things they have on this topic, and using the language that Debbie Maken has in her book? Yet, Ted seems to think that their writing is productive.

Now, have I shown that I agree with Boundless on some issues? Yes, I most certainly have! Consider this article that I wrote a while back, and also consider this post on feminism, wherein I defended Candace Watters. Also, consider the materials I recommended to help people who are dealing with atheists here, and also consider that I further commented on Candace Watters' statements concerning Sam Harris here, agreeing with Candace, and adding to the discussion, presenting more arguments against Mr. Harris. I have also posted on abortion on Boundless, discussed John Piper's use of profanity, and pointed out the self-contradictory nature of the arguments abortion rights advocates. I defended the president of Focus on the Family, Dr. James Dobson against the attacks of the media here, and I also even discussed Anna Nicole Smith! To say that I am just there to be contentious is simply absurd. If Ted wants to use that argument to say that this is the reason you were banned, then he is going to have to deal with these things. Ted wrote the following to me when I was talking with Jennifer:

It's one thing to be fastidious with Scripture in order to determine doctrinal truth. It's another to foster a critical spirit.

Well, where is the critical spirit in all of the above instances? And, even if I am fostering a critical spirit here, he said that he is willing to publish comments of people who are contentious in one place, but not in other instances. Why then not publish my comments? Ted is simply saying something that is untrue. Ted does not know me, and he does not know my background, nor my personal life. No one is fostering a "critical spirit." We are concerned about the sociological ramifications of a movement that is clearly unbiblical. We are concerned about the fact that the people in leadership positions in this movement are refusing to take responsibility for their own teachings. Apparently, Ted must think that Albert Mohler, Debbie Maken, Candace and Steve Watters, et al. could never teach something unbiblical that has horrid sociological ramifications for single men. In fact, I find it very funny that Boundlessline would publish this comment by Steve Watters:

In a recent comment, "Justin" wrote, "If I don't want to get married until I'm 40, then that is between me and God. Not me and the congregation."
I think by this statement it's fair to say Justin's concept of marriage fits into a category researcher Paul Amato describes as "individualistic." In a book that he (and a team of other researchers) wrote called Alone Together, Amato describes the transformation of marriage to the current individualistic focus:
Marriage changed from a formal institution that meets the needs of the larger society to a companionate relationship that meets the needs of the couple and their children and then to a private pact that meets the psychological needs of individual spouses.
We believe at Boundless that God created marriage to be larger than us as individuals, larger than any one couple and larger than any children that couple has. That "institutional" view puts us at odds with the individualistic zeitgeist.

only a short time after Ted Slater said the following:

Is it because you're afraid of change or of rejection? Is it because you're content with the status quo? Is it because you cherish the (selfish) control you have over your time and money? Is it because you'll only settle for a "10"? Is it because you're getting the emotional (and maybe physical) benefits of marriage without the commitments? Is it because you don't want to be inconvenienced? Or are you staying single because doing so enables you to serve the Lord in a peculiarly effective way?I personally don't want to hear your answers to those questions; that's between you and God.

Of course, this illustrated what I have said all along, and has been demonstrated to be true in my blog series entitled Fanmail from the Mandatory Marriage Movement, namely, that this movement has sociological implications for the way single men are to be treated, and thus, if it is false, needs to be dealt with. However, if you dare suggest that this movement is unbiblical, and then go on to show that the arguments from the other side have no weight, you are viewed as having a "critical spirit."

Let us turn this logic around. Let us say that Ted was on a forum disagreeing with a Jehovah's Witness about the trinity. Now, I am sure that Ted, as an orthodox trinitarian, would not agree with anything the Jehovah's Witnesses say about topic of the trinity. However, when he has addressed all of their arguments, and shown them to be wanting, would it be rational for the Jehovah's Witness to counter by saying that he is just fostering a critical spirit, and then ban him from the board? We could go all the way down the line, and any time Ted would not agree with anything that was said on a board, he would be guilty of fostering a "critical spirit." Indeed, such is absurd.

Let's face it. There was no reason to ban Anakin or myself from that blog. I have a feeling that when Ted says that he publishes comments that disagree with their position, what he means is that he is willing to post comments from people who voice a simple disagreement with Boundless, but he is not willing to post comments from someone who is seeking to examine the writers of Boundless. In other words, they are immune to cross-examination. However, what does the book of Proverbs say?:

Proverbs 18:17 The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him.

Yet, Boundless does not want cross-examination for some reason. They don't want to have to be put into a situation in which someone comes along and examines this mandatory marriage teaching, and shows it to be wanting. That is what is "unwelcome on the Line." As Dr. James White always used to say, "Truth is most clearly seen against the backdrop of error." Yet, interestingly enough, they can't even remain consistent when accusing those who would like to have cross-examination on this issue. To do this, I guess, means that you are "not interested in furthering the discussion." No, it is Boundless who is not interested in furthering the discussion, because they are not interested in cross-examination.

You see, it is dishonoring to God's truth to say that we should not examine each other Biblically, and hold us to sound principles of reason and exegesis. Martin Luther at the Diet of Worms did not shy away from cross-examination. He said that, unless he could be convinced by the Bible or sound reasoning, he would not recant. However, that is just the opposite position of the folks over at Boundless. They seem to say that we will not allow anyone to convince them by the Bible and sound reasoning that they are wrong, because they will not allow anyone to cross-examine them. It is amazing how 500 years of Christian history has changed how much we value truth.

I would encourage anyone who has an interest in this topic to file a formal complaint with Boundlessline. Let them know that you are interested in "furthering the discussion" by, first of all, allowing us to cross-examine their position on their blog, and second, by posting an article with a long, formal disputation between Anakin or myself, and one of the people who have written in defense of this position such as Candace and Steve Watters. Let those who promote this position deal with the criticisms of their position, and do so in a manner in which everyone who supports this stuff can see.